Living on the Fenceline

Overview | Conversations with Advocates of Fair Growth | Living on the Fenceline

Milton Cambre

Milton Cambre, 66, lives in a one-story, brown-brick home with a boat in the side-yard and a wheelbarrow planter at 402 Marino Street in NORCO. A tall man, Cambre has lived in NORCO for 40 year and is the town Constable. An avid naturalist with a special interest in the nearby coastal wetlands, he worked for Shell and Union Carbide and said that he successfully lobbied from within for ending the practice of ocean-dumping and deep-well injection of hazardous waste. Former President George H.W. Bush recognized him as a "Point of Light" for his work restoring wetlands.

Interview

I lived here since I got out of the service in 1959. I was born and raised about 25 miles up-river so I wanted to stay on the Mississippi River because it was part of my life-style and this is where the jobs were. When I got out of school in 1953 I went to work in a refinery in Destrehan, which is now closed. I went there for five years and then was drafted into the Service in 1957. In 1958, half way through my two-year tour [of duty] they closed the refinery down. This was when the new plants were beginning to expand. I was briefly with Shell for two years in the early 1960s and got laid off in [an economic] down-turn.

Then I went to [work at] General American, which is right here. It is a tank storage terminal. They used to unload all the boxcars and tank-cars and ships and barges for export and would charge a fee for storing it and shipping it out. I was in the office there. I was the timekeeper and had a payroll and a lot of responsibility. I found out that a guy I was paying, he had to mark [his signature] 'X' because he couldn't read or write . . . and he was making more money than me. So I decided, hey, I could do that, so I changed fields because I had a growing family then. So I became an industrial mechanic at DuPont. I worked on compressors, fixed pumps, cleaned vessels . . . you name it. You are not quite a roustabout . . . in other words you have a multi-capacity field. Sometimes you did some highly technical work on a compressor that might be worth $100,000.

I'm 66 years old. I've been retired for 17 years. I've been very fortunate. Yes, I'm an environmentalist. I was chosen by President Bush as his 387th 'Point of Light' in the environmental field as a volunteer. I've made six documentaries one of them for Turner Broadcasting: "World Without Borders." It is about the five great rivers of the world and about how individuals from around the world try to solve problems with their river. There was the Nile, the Amazon, and my section was on the Mississippi. Each river was broken down into 20 minute segments so I was dealing with the problems associated with the pollution [of the Mississippi] and what has happened to the river over the years by using some of the river as a dumping ground, which we were doing at one time . . . and helping it to come back. Part of my deal was, hey, all we do is create problems by not properly disposing of the stuff [toxic wastes] and it is actually costing more in the long run. I was specifically involved it wetland restoration.

When you live here . . . I was concerned about the episodic releases, the flaring and so on. But I guess I am not just one who goes on and criticizes, I want to solve the problem because industry has a role. It has certainly benefited my life and my kids life. We have an excellent education system and the only reason we can have that is because we have industry. But that doesn't give industry the right to pollute and do what they want.

So I figure my role is, hey, reduce your emissions, and give us a good quality of life. I am constantly working with industry but basically I set the tone when I was with DuPont. They were doing some things where they were injecting some of the chemicals into the ground deep-well injection [of hazardous wastes]. And I didn't think that was right. Then they quit that and they started putting it in barrels and weighing the barrels and dumping it. And then I got . . . well, where are they dumping it? Well, they were dumping it in the Gulf of Mexico. I said: 'Hey, that is where I do all my fishing and shrimping.' I didn't think that was a good idea [either]. So I was on the inside. It [my environmental interest] was never a staff job; I stayed in my role as an hourly employee, but I voiced my opinions and I was thought of highly by the plant managers. They never did retaliate on me. And eventually they built an incinerator where they incinerated the stuff, which I thought was better. This was hydrocarbons [they were incinerating] so it looked like from all the tests maybe it didn't completely solve the problem but it certainly was a whole lot better than what they were doing before. I guess I am fairly well respected. I speak my piece. They have seen my role, they recognize my role and it is not a confrontational one. It is, hey, I want to work with you to solve the problem; I am not going to say, hey, shut you down because I realize the consequences of that.

I have four children living within a mile of the [Shell] plant. One in NORCO just down the street. I have a son who lives on the other side of the spillway. And my daughter lives less than a mile [from here] in New Sarpy. My daughter works for GE Medical and my other daughter works for the Parish Sheriff's Department. And I have a son in Salt Lake City who works for Warehauser and he is dying to come back home. They all went to school here in NORCO. It is very, very complicated [with all the different mergers] and I don't think that is ultimately the thing to do and I have been expressing concern. Shell married Texaco, then there were the Saudis, then there was Motiva. The Texaco deal didn't work out so they then merged with Chevron. Now Shell and the Saudis bought out Texaco so . . . it is a complex world. I was brought up to think Shell was Shell and PanAm was PanAm.

I can remember, when I started dating and coming down here, the town stank. Hey . . . . Whenever you passed through NORCO, you knew it I'm talking about the forties and early fifties. People said, hey, something had to be done. They [Shell] made improvements so I decided to move here. I didn't want to have to drive thirty miles back and forth to my job . . . . I didn't think that was too smart . . . I was spending all kinds of time on the road. So I said, well, wherever I'm going to go I am going to eliminate a lot of driving. I [would not have] come out here had Shell not improved their image and stuff. Hey, I probably would not have located here. But by the time I moved here they had taken steps. I have served on panels with industry and the community and activists: the only way you get results is to express your concerns and be willing to stand up for them.

I have been here through the major explosion at Shell [in 1988]. A lot of my windows were blown out. I had $40,000 worth of damage on this house. So I have been through it. Not only that I lived through an explosion at DuPont where we lost four or five people. I actually witnessed it. One of the reasons I am here today is . . . I was in the area directly that was impacted. We had more or less finished our job . . . it was one of those incentive jobs where you hurry up and get it done. And we were in the shop doing something else and all we had to do was go back and clean up. We had a little time so we were doing other things in the shop, which was maybe 100 yards away . . . or maybe a little less, say 75 yards [from the unit that exploded]. And all of a sudden I hear a tremendous noise out on the unit where we were working. I went to the doorway and I see this big old plume of material coming out. I said: 'Something is wrong.' And while I am watching it ignited. I could not move. People tell you what you should do but I say you can't know until you witness it. Things were falling around me and I'm stuck . . . watching something I couldn't visualize. Somebody was in the shop and said: 'Let's get the hell out of here.' And then I moved. And when I went out of the shop these guys who were walking out [those] who survived -- came walking out of the unit and it burned all the clothes off of them. So it is scary stuff but you know what you are dealing with and that is part of the price we pay for getting the quality of life that we have.

The biggest problem I have [with the air] is when they have the flaring at times, especially when they are starting up or closing down [a unit]. I have been asking them, and they have agreed through our community panels, that they are going to try to minimize that. We all know that a certain amount of this is going to go on. What I have been trying to stress is let's minimize the impacts as much as possible.

I am an environmentalist and I know the problems and I would never have subjected my kids to anything I felt was dangerous. Hey, that would be irresponsible on my part especially since I have had such a history of knowing . . . because I have had to deal with suspected and known carcinogens. I love my kids. I certainly would not have encouraged them to stay here if I would have thought that there would have been a danger of them contracting anything. No, [I don't feel there is a danger from emissions from the plant] . . . . absolutely not.

I see they [Shell] are taking [relocating] two streets in the Diamond community; they are also taking two streets in the NORCO community. I try to look at their interest. They want to create a buffer zone. The people on this side of Good Hope Street are not being made offers. And I'm sure if you would look at it then maybe some of them would [want to relocate]. But that is not happening. And you know we have a good community; we have pretty good relations.

Many years ago, in my environmental efforts, we had a diversion project, which would have diverted river water to save our wetlands. And the little community on the other side of the spillway, the little town of Montz, which was predominantly black . . . we had to have public hearings on it because they were going to be displaced. And guess what? Half of them wanted to stay and half of them wanted to leave. And I view this other situation [in Diamond] in similar terms. And I had to hold a public meeting [in Montz] because I am chairman of the Citizen's Advisory Committee of the Coastal Zone of the Parish.

Yes [it makes sense for Shell to buy two streets to create a buffer zone]. You are talking about a fence-line as compared with a couple of blocks. A couple of blocks make all the difference in the world. And it is not like they are going to move in the fence-line. It is going to be planted in trees. So that makes sense to me.

Some will say: 'Hey, well, you are buying the guy across the street. Why are you not buying me out?' Let's face it: there are going to be some people who don't want to move regardless. So it is not a forced buy-out. It is voluntary.

If you are saying it is too dangerous and it is a health hazard, then I think it would be time for the government to step in and say: 'Hey, you [Shell] are putting these people at risk.' And that has not happened. That is the job of government.

It is hard to pinpoint [why many people in Diamond want to move and most in the rest of NORCO don't perceive a danger]. I'm working with DEQ [the State Department of Environmental Quality] concerning emissions. I'm one of those who says: 'Hey . . . our emissions have been going down . . . the stuff released in the air . . . And I know because in our wetlands we were losing all our moss because of the pollution in the 1970s. So something had to be done. Moss is a parasite and it needs clean air. So that was a big change for me and I'm not talking about just here in this little community. I am talking about in the swamp . . . in the wetlands that I deal with . . . about five miles from here. The moss has recovered greatly since the emissions have been greatly reduced.

And we don't see the haze and I know that leads into asthma and things of that nature. One of my grandsons has asthma but he lives in Munz on the other side of the spillway. He has to be treated but I can't see the plant is the cause of it because he is all the way in Munz [about a mile and a half from the chemical plant]. People who live near the plant think: 'This has to be the cause of it [asthma].' I don't relate that. People say it is hazardous so I stay close and try to look at the cancer [rates] . . . I'm concerned about the cancer but cancer [also] has a lot to do with the life style. You can't just put [blame] it on the pollutants.

So, I know people here in the community that I look after, some of my friends, and she is 88 and he is 90. We just lost three people in the neighborhood in the last six months: they were all in their nineties and they lived here all their lives . . . . We have a lot of them. It is not just isolated: we have a big elderly community here. So if it is the pollutants . . . as you get older you should be more susceptible [at least] in my mind. And I am not a very intelligent individual. Hey, I don't have but a high school education. All I have is a little bit of common sense and I go ahead and try to use it. Since I am a spokesman, so to speak, I am not just going to deal with emotion. I want facts. I want to make decisions based . . . because it affects people.

We brought that up [the idea of a health study] and we have had Dr. Chin come out here several times to our Community Advisory Panel just to prove or disprove if we have health hazards. (Chin is from Tulane or the University of New Orleans, I'm not really sure.) And we have never really been able to say: 'We have a problem.' I support any study or things of that nature. We have never been able to link the health [problems] with the pollution. Chin looked at all the data that was available. She presented all the stats about 'cancer alley' between New Orleans and Baton Rouge and particularly how it relates to the river [Mississippi] and the water we drink and the air we breathe and the concentration of industry. And we have the biggest concentration right here in NORCO because not only here but across the river we have [Union] Carbide, and quite a few others [DuPont] so this is thick here [with industry]. So I am interested. [The data Chin presented showed there was no disproportionate health problem here]. Right . . . with any particular type of cancer or health problem that they could link to industry.

DEQ monitors the thing [air quality]. And as far as I know . . . in fact we met for maybe a year and a half with DEQ trying to address the specific problems. And as I recall, they [Shell] were going to put [air] monitors into the community. That will prove or disprove [if there are levels of toxins in the air that are above regulatory levels] . . . The people still have to work there and the community still has to live here. I think it would be a black eye on all industry if we can't operate the plants in a safe enough manner where anybody can't live within a mile, two miles or five miles of the plant. How are you going to get people to go work in those plants?

Would you subject your family to it [health hazards from the plants]? I'm not living 20 to 30 blocks away [from the plant. He lives about nine blocks from Shell Chemical and about six blocks from Shell/Motiva Refinery].

How these plants are located is they buy big pieces of ground and thy set their plants in the center of them because they don't want the same thing to happen [nearby residents complaining about pollution]. Here there was a plantation where the chemical plant was built . . . . But the people that were burnt [Helen Washington and Leroy Jones] they were on that first street [Washington Street].

The only one time we had a big explosion was in 1988 and the plant has been operating since the 1920s. So we are talking about 80 years. People at the Pentagon . . . sitting at their desks . . . we are living in different times now . . . We would have never thought that they or the people in the twin towers . . . So I try to get things into perspective. You know it is a crazy world we live in and I guess . . . it still boils down to we need to address the problems that concern us. And that is what I try to do.

We still need a viable community but we still need industry to support the good educational system to give those kids an opportunity to better themselves. And if they don't want to work at these plants we want to give them that opportunity to, hey, move out into different . . . And the only way we are going to do that is to have something in place . . . industry or whatever to support a good educational system to give them that opportunity. So I guess that is where I realize that it is a risk . . . but we have people from St. John [parish] coming in here because they have less pollution than us, they have less plants, but their education . . . it [is not very good]. We don't live in an ideal world. We maybe could get other types of industries that make socks . . . but what is the pay scale going to be?

We have to look to government [to regulate] these so-called brownfields where it has actually been proven that it is an unhealthy situation. So I would think in this case here it would have to be government [that stepped in to regulate] and not industry. Industry's responsibility is to comply with the laws and minimize [emissions] and they certainly want to have a good rapport with the community because it certain doesn't benefit them to have a black eye. But some people, no mater what, you are not going to satisfy them. Should industry be completely responsible [for this situation]? We have a government that is responsible to all of us. They have to regulate industry and keep it safe for us. Government has to be the hammer to do the job. It is not the role of industry to be the savior. I think it is a stretch . . . If we want industry to provide jobs . . . and certainly they have to clean up the environment and everything else . . . but their role should be limited as I view it.

Are we talking about an environmental issue [in Diamond] or are we talking about an economic issue? Their contention [in Diamond] is that they are living close to the plant and that they are at a health risk. Yet right down the street . . . we are building a brand new subdivision where the homes are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Certainly those people, if they are in a higher economic status, they can go where they want. They don't have to live there. So I think if there was as much risk as some people tend to believe . . . and I believe I can sell this house and certainly move out.

I don't feel at risk and I want to make sure I don't feel at risk. My allegiance is to the community: hey, I'm an elected official here: I am the constable. And Diamond is part of my constituency. So I think nothing of going into Diamond. In my duties a lot of times I will go right across the track and the fence-line . . . We generally have a prevailing south wind so those people [in the new homes] would be more exposed than the people in Diamond who would be to the east . . . [The people in Diamond, on the back two streets, are no more exposed than people in other parts of town]. No, I really don't [think so]. I think a lot of it is an economic issue.

And, what I was disappointed in . . . as an elected official I attended every one of those meetings . . . and they held them right here at the VFW Hall. And I did not see the numbers of the Diamond community that . . . and we had all the officials from DEQ and we had EPA people coming from Houston . . . so I was disappointed. Sometimes we would have a half dozen of them [residents of Diamond] there. I sat at every meeting. If you want to get something done and you really are concerned about something you have to be willing to make the commitment . . . and those meetings were at night so you can't say you were at work.

So I look at all of that and I try to be objective. I am not against . . . but I realize the value of industry, I realize the importance of keeping the community happy. I want to keep the relations between the two groups as best as possible. And I know these people [residents of Diamond] . . . I am going to be walking the community again. I am going to seek reelection again [as constable]. I have been elected three times now. I have a good relationship with the people. And if they need something I will go to bat for them.

[It is a dramatically different perspective on the different side of the Gaspard/Mule line]. There is. I just can't pinpoint it. I can understand them two streets, hey, that makes sense to me . . . less complaint and you certainly would eliminate the problem you had [when Jones and Washington were killed]. And two blocks is a lot of difference. I think if they want to buy out all of the community [of Diamond] then the people in NORCO will say: 'Well, hey, we want a buy-out too. Why should you [Shell] treat [them in Diamond differently]. And that is what would happen. Then, you would still have people there and here who would not want to move.

To move the whole community somewhere else that would be a virtual impossibility. I don't think it would be feasible. So if Shell would give in and say they will buy all four streets [in Diamond] these people would scatter. It would seem to me highly unlikely that they could move anywhere in this parish and stay in a community as they claim to want to do.

Shell will have to ask themselves if economically it is still in their best interests to operate the plant here. We could probably shut the thing down . . . Hey, I've been down that road. In 1958 when I was the Service they closed down the place where I worked and this was a new refinery that was built in the early 1950s. And I will grant you that there were other plants that sprang up that were much bigger, but the economics got them and one day they just decided to shut the thing down. And that certainly made it a whole lot better environmentally but where in the world would it leave us economically. And the same people who are disadvantaged, who depend on this educational system that is so good and being supported by all this industry . . . then everybody would suffer and we wouldn't be able to move on up.

And that frightens me a whole lot. There is only so much that industry is willing but also capable of doing. Too many people look at industry as [having] deep, deep pockets. Everybody has limits. And these people who make the decisions ultimately they are going to look at all of this and if they can't resolve the problems . . . I've been down that road before and know economics plays a very important role. They can do a certain amount and after that if it gets too tight . . . they are going to shut it down. They are going to locate at another site. I don't think they have that much investment here. They had a vinyl chloride monomer unit here: they shut that thing down. In my view that was because the government was after them that they couldn't have any emissions and they couldn't operate under those conditions. This {VCM} is, as I understand it, a known carcinogen. So what did they do? They shut that plant down. Do you know where they moved it? It went to China as far as I understand because they don't have any environmental [regulations]. If they lose a thousand or ten thousand people . . . China has a billion. So I am looking at the whole picture.

I have been constable 14 years.

Yes [I get the sense that there are people coming in from the outside and pumping up the sense that there is a problem here]. Greenpeace is famous for that. I don't belong to Greenpeace. Greenpeace is to far out of the mainstream to me. I can't say, hey, we are going to shut everything down. That, to me, is not staying in the mainstream, certainly, and not realizing the consequences of all of your actions. Greenpeace has been in here several times for various reasons and companies get real upset when they come out here because they are worried that maybe something could happen . . . an act of sabotage or something. And I don't think they would do it myself but they [industry] get very concerned.

Why couldn't they [Diamond residents] go to the forum that could help address the problems? Industry was at the table; environmental groups were certainly there; you had EPA and DEQ and those are the regulators that you are going to get to address the problem if you are that concerned. We broke this thing up [ended the panel] and basically it was because people quit coming. And issues were brought up. The railroad track [evacuation route] was a big thing and the crossings and the trains. That was a big issue: a way to get out in case something happened. I heard those two issues more than emissions or an unhealthy situation. Relocation came up but it was not the biggest issue. First it was [Shell was going to relocate] one street and then two. And then people were saying: 'If you are not going to do it for the other part of the community why should you single out the Diamond community. As I recall that was an issue that came up. It was sponsored by DEQ and was open to the public.

I don't think we have really had a history of division between the two communities [Diamond and NORCO] . . . that we were that alienated from one another. But as far as them [residents of Diamond] thinking you don't have to fight for what you want that is part of the American way no one is going to come back and look after you unless you are willing to fight for yourself. That is the way our system basically works. If we want to get something done, I know I have been at this thing [wetlands protection and restoration] 30 to 40 years. I certainly get down sometimes. If I would have quit I certainly would not be at the stage I am now and I certainly don't feel I would have been able to get accomplished what I have been able to accomplish. You don't just say: 'Oh, this all is just wrong and go to hell.' Unless you have gone ahead and gotten a commitment to try to resolve whatever you feel is the problem . . . .

They have been able to desegregate the schools. Whoever were their leaders who brought them to this stage are they going to say: 'We are not going to fight any more?' They are getting the media to solve their problems. To me, they need to get to the table to solve the problems. I guess that is where our views are different.

I gave a lot of my time and I take out 150 kids from the schools and they are certainly not segregated. I take them out there and we are building a park by Bonnet Carre Spillway. We take them out and the first thing they do is sample the water and they have little dip nets and they see what is in the water. And then we tell them about the history of the area. And we tell them this is what we are doing to give you some opportunities so you can make a park out here. So they are doing this as community services. They plant trees. As people are being relocated out of Diamond I am using the concrete to reclaim part of the lake. This is the Bayou that is polluted that I am working on right now. This is Bayou Trepagnier that goes back to Shell. We take the kids down and go under the [railroad] track, under the Interstate and we are filling in here all the way to this bayou. We have a nature trail here and walk the kids and tell them the history . . . So we give them an overview of the importance of the area.

There is cypress swamp, tupelo, and freshwater marsh and brackish water. Since they built the interstate all of this is turning . . . essentially opening up. [So we are losing wetland]. This was a reclamation project at the turn of the century. They grew vegetables here and they built a levy here and they had a pump station here. And this was a road before they built this spillway and the lake has reclaimed it. So we take the kids here and explain about what is happening with coastal erosion, why we are losing 30 square miles, why they have to get involved into doing something. And we tell them the importance of the Lake and we let them walk this nature trail. This is our community here. This is a land satellite photo I work with. The Parish has given me that. So these are all my recognitions. This is the photo with President Bush. This is the coin. So I have been at this all my life.

We had a black fellow who worked for us. My family had a post office in Polina about 25 miles up-river. We were certainly not a wealthy family: my daddy worked, my momma worked. And the trains delivered the mail. And we had a little bit of property: it was half an orbit (?) wide and fairly deep. He [the African American worker] had to use a wheelbarrow to go from the post office to meet the trains and he did that twice a day. The rest of the time he didn't have anything to do and we had land and he had a mule. So we provided the seed, and the fertilizer, and the plants and he took care of it [did the labor] and we split all the vegetables. So it worked out for both of us: it was a win/win situation for both of us. So I grew up [with African American people]. He was the best man: he would take [bring] sugar cane for us, peel us pecans as kids. So we had a good relationship with this black fellow. It wasn't a big race issue with me during my life.

[But people still live in different areas and Norco remains racially divided in terms of where people live]. Yes, I walk these streets. [You know where the line is]. Right. I do. I guess we differ on how we are going to resolve these things and still keep the industry here. How do we do that unless we work together? If they are going to succeed [the people on the back two streets of Diamond who want to be relocated] then I think Shell will want to close the plant down. And certainly . . . the school system would go down because they don't have the tax base

[Shell wouldn't like the precedent that large-scale relocation would set]. Absolutely. How many people are actually going to move from Diamond? I was getting some concrete [for wetlands restoration from Washington Street in Diamond where homes had been knocked down as people were being relocated] and this lady came out and said: 'Well, you are not going to buy me out.' And she was right on the property-line [fence-line with Shell]. And I said: 'Lady, that is your choice.' We had the same thing in the white community too. [Some of them] are not willing to move too.

I think if Shell has to buy out the back two streets Shell is going to move. That is the way I look at it. You look at the price of gasoline. At the beginning of the year it was almost $1.50 a gallon; it is a little over $1.00 a gallon now. There is so much manipulation [about prices] I am getting real suspicious. There certainly wasn't an energy crisis in California . . . there was a lot of manipulation . . . So you are looking at the Middle East, you are looking at oil. Gasoline is very cheap. Shell is out there in the deep waters drilling in 3,000 foot of water [in the Gulf] and they are competing at the same price for oil at about $20 per barrel -- as we are able to buy form overseas. They have a tremendous investment . . . they have to build these platforms, Shell does . . . it has a tremendous cost to develop a barrel of oil. But they [Shell] get it from all over . . . from Nigeria, from the North Sea.

[Prices go up and down]. We all understand that. But decisions are made in London based on the long term. They look at the investment . . . like a lot of other things in this country . . . they can make it cheaper somewhere else. So they go ahead and get it cheaper and bring it back in. That is the scary part to me; four out of five pieces of apparel are made overseas. Textile mills are in trouble. We can't import all our steel and be a world power because in a time of war we can't import all that stuff. So I guess maybe I look at the broader picture. I'm not that well educated and I don't claim to be a very smart individual but when I have to make decisions I try in my limited capacity to do the best thing I can. The only way I can do that is to look at the overall view. I am not tied into a very narrow view. I am as concerned about them [the residents of Diamond] as they are. But I know that industry supports the education that gives them the opportunity to go on ahead. If they are going to have a future . . . and I give a lot of my time to these kids and I impress on them that you have to get an education in order to compete. We have to compete as a nation to maintain the quality of life we have now. I get scared.

If we are going to survive as a nation we can't do like the people in Northern Ireland where the Protestants are against the Catholics . . . or [in the Middle East] where the Moslems [are against the Jews]. If we start squabbling as a group it is not going to work out.

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